RSS Feed

FAQ1:We don’t consider the Imams (as) to be independent…..

Posted on

Q. We don’t consider the Imams (as) to be independent; we consider them to be dependent on Allah (swt), so how is it shirk to supplicate to the Imams (as)?

Ans:

This argument of dependent and independent is one of the favorite arguments of those who call upon other than Allah (swt), but sadly as convincing as it may sound on the surface, this argument does not hold water when critically analyzed.

Firstly, like we have already said in the discussion under verse 2 (Click here to read), if we really consider the Imams (as) to be totally dependent on Allah (swt), i.e the Imam (as) can only come and help us, or give us sustenance, if Allah (swt) allows them, and if Allah (swt) does not allow them, then they cannot help us, then it’s useless to call upon the Imams (as) because Allah (swt) is the ultimate decision maker. It would be like praying to the angel of death not to take our soul, which is very illogical, because the angel of death does not have decision making power; he is totally dependent on Allah (swt). Therefore on the first level it’s useless to call upon the Imams (as) even if we consider them to be totally dependent on Allah (swt) in helping us (which we have no proof for).

It is such a simple logic that we should try to convince the decision maker rather than the (one we consider to be the) means. In the worldly matters we would never make such an illogical mistake since then we would incur material losses, but since religion is just a pack of rituals for us and not reality, we don’t mind being illogical.

It’s impossible for people to call upon anyone other than Allah (swt), unless they believe that the entity they are calling upon has some independent power to make decision and help us, therefore how ever much these people defend themselves by saying that we consider the Imams (as) to be dependent, it’s not true, and they are only lying to themselves as the Quran says “And the Day We will gather them all together; then We will say to those who associated others with Allah,

“Where are your ‘partners’ that you used to claim [with Him]?”

Then there will be no [excuse upon] examination except they will say, “By Allah, our Lord, we were not those who associated.”

Look! How they lie against themselves! But the (lie) which they invented will disappear from them.” (6:21-24)

Secondly, considering them dependent on Allah (swt) (especially when it’s not true) doesn’t make it any less of shirk, as we have already discussed  under verse 3 (5:116) (Click here to read), Christians call upon Mary considering her to be totally dependent on Allah (swt), yet in the eyes of Allah (swt) it is shirk.

Similarly, Christians do not believe that Jesus attained the station of being God’s son independently, rather God took him as a son, yet the Quran calls this kufr and shirk.

Interestingly, even the polytheists of Mecca did not consider their idols to be independent rather they considered them to be their intercessors with Allah (swt) as can be seen in Surah Yunus verse 18,

And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, “These are our intercessors with Allah ” Say, “Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?” Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him

Thirdly, we have no authentic proof that Allah (swt) has given the Imams (as) the duty to help us, or give sustenance etc.

Advertisements

24 responses »

  1. Pingback: List of Posts | Shia Reformist

  2. Beautiful, Mash’Allah! The dependent/ independent is the favorite argument by which (unfortunately) Quranic verses are twisted and people are permitted by many scholars to engage in Shirk of calling upon Prophet and Aimmah from across the curtain of ghayb.

    The claim some may make is that, well the Prophet and Aimmah do not give rizq, help, etc. they only pass the messages on to God. However, even if we restrict one’s understanding to these “secretarial” duties, unanswered questions persist: (1) Where is it mentioned that God appointed these entities as His “secretaries”? (2) Even to pass on the message, one would expect the Prophet and Aimmah to evaluate, vet, and filter the requests before adding their shafa’ah to it. Hence it involves independent decision making process that would cause benefit/ harm from beyond the curtain of ghayb i.e. a sense of independence.

    At the end of the day, the matter is quite simple. The whole dependent/ independent argument is no more than a facade. It is simply this – there is no evidence that God has appointed anyone to tend to requests from across the curtain of ghayb and pass them to Him, either as a secretary or with any kind of decision making applied to it. And since He asks us to only call upon Him (beyond the curtain of ghayb) and also there exists no reliable evidence that there is an exception for anyone in this, then claiming/ attributing such power to anyone, is to associate them with Allah swt i.e. manifest Shirk.

    Like

    Reply
  3. I have read a article, that Imam Ali will be judge on yawmil qiyama. he will be the scale between hell and paradise. what are you saying about that? wish you could post more articles about that!

    Like

    Reply
  4. Brother, the discussion is not about narrating hadith.

    The discussion is about supplicating and calling upon the Imams (as) for help. When we say that this is wrong, people reply by saying “we dont consider the Imams to be independent, we believe that Allah has given them the power to help us, give us rizq and children etc”.

    That is what we have replied to.

    Like

    Reply
  5. Mmmm you seem to be so confident.
    Ok i believe in bhagwat geeta, prove your point from that! 😂

    Like

    Reply
  6. Brother, its better to discuss this rather than making it a fight or a matter of ego.

    Jokes apart, the source i believe in Quran, and authentic hadith.

    Please note:
    1) the quranic verse shoule be clear cut, and you should not use narrations to twist the meaning of the verse

    2) if you use hadith, use shia books of hadith only, and make sure that the narration you are using is “sahih” by its sanad.

    Looking forward to your reply.

    Like

    Reply
  7. You were so confident, i thought you would bring a verse or hadith that talks about the 3 situations you were talking about. This verse has nothing to do with what you claimed earlier.
    How does this prove those 3 situations?

    Secondly, I told you to use authentic narrations, this narrations is “Daeef” because of its principle narrators “Abul Jarood”, who has been called “kazzab” (liar) and “maloon” (worthy of lanat), by shia scholars of rijal.

    Like

    Reply
  8. Yes brother, I am not intelligent. Now please explain for me and for anyone else who reads this. How does the verse and hadith prove what you were claiming.

    As for rejecting a hadith, i think you have no idea how this works. Our own shia scholars reject hadith mentioned by sheikh saduq and other scholars day and night. No one believes that every hadith is authentic, neither did Sheikh Saduq himself claim that all the hadith he has mentioned are authentic.
    What about the tens of hadith I have mentioned about Imams not having Ilm al ghayb, or the Imams not having the power to give rizq, health etc, do you accept them too?

    As for Abu al Jarud being unreliable. See this (if u can read arabic), Ayatullah khoei in Kitab al Tahara has rejected two narrations because of Abu al Jarood and he mentioned that he is a liar, kafir and maloon.

    اب الطهارة – السيد الخوئي – ج 9 – شرح ص 209
    لكنتقدم أنسند الرواية ضعيف لورود الذم في أبي الجارود فقد ورد أنهكذاب وأنه كافر
    كتاب الطهارة – السيد الخوئي – ج 9 – شرح ص 183 – 184
    على أن السند يحتوي على أبي الجارود وهو زياد بن المنذر رئيس الفرقةالجارودية الذي عبر عنه الباقر عليه السلام بسرحوب وسرحوب اسم شيطان أعمى يسكنالبحر وأبو الجارود كان أعمى أيضا وقد ذكر الكشي أنه كان مكفوفا أعمى أعمى القلبوقد ورد أنه كذاب ملعون فلا يمكن الاعتماد على روايته.

    Like

    Reply
  9. If you search for the book in English, ofcourse you will not find it, because the book is in arabic.

    You did not answer my other points, explain how the verse and hadith prove your previous claim of 3 situations.

    Like

    Reply
  10. And as for your ignorant comment about rejecting a hadith mentioned by Sheikh Saduq.

    Let me ask you, what do you think about abu huraira? Is he reliable? Ofcourse, no shia would accept that. The very second narration in the same book Amali of sheikh saduq (which you do not have, neither have you read, accept the narration which you copied), sheikh saduq has narrated a hadith with Abu Huraira in the sanad.
    Now decide whether you want to call abu huraira reliable, or you want to question the reliability of narrations mentioned by sheikh saduq.

    He has also narrated hadith from known “nasibi” like abu nasr ahmed bin ubaid al nisaapoori al marwani, so maybe you will accept narrations from nasibis also now?

    Don’t argue about things you have absolutely no idea about.

    Like

    Reply
  11. Go to google and type

    كتاب الطهارة السيد الخوئي

    You will find many links, for different volumes of the book.

    Like

    Reply
  12. So Syed Khoei is not reliable, who is reliable then? Ayatullah Aun Ali?

    What kind of a senseless example have you given. How can he give a clear answer on a matter which itself is unclear. He said that is popular, because he knows the narrations are all weak, may be he dint want to get in trouble by saying that clearly.

    So because of this now Ayatullah Khoei became useless? Mahallah!

    Like

    Reply
  13. We were talking about “will” in things like providing rizq to a person, giving health, children and listening to Dua. What you have mentioned has nothing to do with that. We are talking about “takwini” matters.

    So today I may give charity to someone, and then I can claim that Allah’s will is to give charity, his will was combined with mine, so now I can give rizq and health to people?

    Maybe it would be a good idea that you stop trying to prove your point here and keep believing what you believe, because your twisted logic can cause someone a heart attack.

    Like

    Reply
  14. FYI This is not an urdu majlis that you say something totally illogical and you will get Narey Haidary!
    In Majalis people leave their brains at home and come, so no wonder they shout Naraas on “0” IQ level molana’s majlis.

    Like

    Reply
  15. Wow, so you are the same person who was condemning me for calling a hadith daeef because it was narrated by sheikh saduq? Who asked me “Do you think you know more about isnaad than sheikh saduq? Are you saying sheikh saduq is a liar”.

    What double standards and hypocrisy is this??

    So I rejected a hadith with proof, but that is a problem for you? And you baselessly reject Syed Khoei’s opinion and that is enlightenment? Hahahah

    We also go by the method that whatever is not in line with Quran should be rejected, that is the primary reason why we reject these beliefs that imams can give rizq or health or children, because it contradicts the quran and authentic narrations of imams.
    We also reject supplicating to imams because that is contradictory to the quran and authentic narrations of the imams.

    Isnaad for us the the secondary option.

    Maybe you did not even read the proofs we have given, our primary proof is always Quran.

    So stop claiming things in the air, and go and actually read the quran so that you know what is against the Quran.

    Like

    Reply
  16. The power of doing what?
    What are you discussing here?

    Why don’t you talk about what I have written?

    I have written about the belief that Imams can give rizq, health, children etc and fulfill people’s prayers (independently or being dependent on Allah).
    That is what we have refuted.

    If you have anything to say about that please go ahead, but don’t start a new topic which is unrelated.

    Like

    Reply
  17. If the hadith has a sanad then please write that down.

    As for your comment on Syed Khoei, it just goes to show your ignorance. The biographies and gradings of narrators are present in the books of Rijal, Ayatullah Khoei relied on that for calling the hadith daeef, dont expose your ignorance here.

    Like

    Reply
  18. I know because it is well known among scholars that the biographies of narrators are given in books of ilm al rijal, he dint just randomly accuse abu al jarood of being a liar, your bias makes you think so.

    And what a joke, there is absolutely nothing in the Quran to support the hadith of Abu al Jarood, only i person who has not read the Quran will assume what you are assuming.

    And you did not provide the sanad of the narration you last mentioned.

    Like

    Reply
  19. Im happy your knowledge increased.

    Yeh the line of ghuluw has been defined by Ahlulbayt (as), they have said “whoever says about us something that we did not claim about ourselves, is a ghaali”.

    So I only that attribute to the Imams (as) which is proven from them.

    They never claimed they have ilm al ghayb, they did not ask people to supplicate to them, they did not say they have control over the universe, these are all things which are unique to Allah (swt).

    And you still did not give the sanad of the narration you mentioned, maybe there is no sanad at all for it.

    Enjoy belief based on sanadless and fabricated narrations!! 👍

    Like

    Reply
  20. Very interesting and meaningful message also make lot of sense..
    but this what i heard all my life that they have ilm al ghayb and also can ans our prayers about rizq and health.
    but good read.

    Like

    Reply
    • Thank you brother. Yes we were brought up with the same teachings, and exaggerations about Ahlulbayt (as). But after reading the Quran, being open minded and sincerely seeking the trurh a person can believe in all this.
      Stay in touch, if you have any comments, questions or criticism, please feel free to email me on shiareformist@hotmail.com

      Like

      Reply

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: